For some reason I often find myself having a rough ride against loose aggressive players, when playing 6-handed. Yesterday I ran into a guy who proved particularly tricky, and I would like some inputs on how to play this guy.
He sees the flop 80% and raise it in half of those times. On the flop he calls appr. 60% of the times, raising on the flop half of those times. When he doesn't raise on the flop he will always raise or reraise on the turn. And no matter what you do from there he will call you down.
Pretty mechanic, but he doesn't exactly give away a lot of information on where he's at by this strategy, and he makes sure it's bloody expensive for you to find out.
How would you play such a guy?
If you insist on playing against him then it's more a battle of the player then the cards. Loose players in my experience are playing this way in order to disguise their good hands and aren't trying to win their bad hands necessarily. In most cases they want you to call and beat them with their junk so when their good hand comes you will be more likely to challenge. They keep the pots high in order to get their opponents comfortable with those amounts.
I call these guys the bully and recently posted a thread about it. Last thing I want to do however is put this guy on alert that I am on to him. It will simply make him play better and I don't want that at all. You need to grow some nads to play these people that's for sure because your paired 3's are often enough to beat them if you just have the nerve to call. You simply have to ask yourself how many good hands can this guy possibly have and go after him stealthily.
If you'd rather be blunt, then simply come over the top of him on everything and start pushing back. This could be far more costly for a few rounds, but you should shut him up. Only problem, as I mentioned before, he will start to play better and that's not necessarily a good thing.
Those players are really tough to crack, at least at short handed tables where you cannot afford to wait for a premium hand. When such a player is present, I play a little tighter and much more aggressive. Winning 60-70% of the showdowns against the maniac is usually enough to extract profit from him, but the real problem I have is beating the maniac but losing to another player. Therefore, I'd suggest sitting to the maniacs right if possible; having positional advantage to the maniac doesn't really matter, because he isn't giving away any information and this way you will have position to the rest of the table.
If you can tolerate him without tilting for some pretty long time, you have to play with him - such guys are source of income. The key, however, is to have him on your right, play tighter than usual and never or almost never chase him in multiway pots. The best two moves you do after his action are raise or fold and you do have to raise the hands that you would normally just call with. The most mental difficulty here is folding
your hands after his raises but that is what you should be able to do easy. But when a time come he will build the pots for you and you will actually manipulate him driving the betting pattern and taking the nice pots.
Really, which side of the maniac is it better to be on here. I'd prefer to be on his right and always checking (betting only if I want to 3 bet his raise) to him effectively getting last action on every round. Sitting on his left you can re-raise for isolation, but that ploy will only work as long as your opponents don't catch on and that won't really last too long if you have decent opponents. As bilo said, you have the position on the rest of the table and you're not giving up anything to him since he's going to bet anyway. I think you're looking to drag in the few monster pots and give up most of your marginal hands, but playing a few marginal hands to give him a false sense of confidence for when you do bring down the hammer.
I definatley want this guy on my right. When he raises I am 3 betting anything remotely reasonable. Once I notice he is raising way too often I have no problem 3 betting with QTo preflop. Assuming the rest of the field folds (tough for them to call 3 bets cold with hands like KQ, KJ, or pocket 8s) you are heads up with what is in all likelyhood a better hand and you have position.
In this situation I adjust my starting hands for the hands the maniac is going to play (another reason I need him on my right). Low to mid poockets are mucked along with low and mid suited connectors. High cards become gods and get 3 bet preflop. Most of the people I ran into like this when I played a lot of 6 handed would either bet out or check raise the flop. Not very often will they check/fold the flop after 3 bets preflop. Their preflop aggression just continues throughout the hand. Once you determine what kind of hand he bets out with and what hands he check raises you will have a pretty good idea where your at. Generally though against this type of player, any peice of the flop is worth a trip to the river.
I think referring to players who play like this as morons is a bit insulting. At low stakes NL I play tight, but once you move up to a higher blind level the players become tighter, and I find the best way to take advantage of this is to play super aggresive and pretty loose preflop. Just because I might raise 3 or 4 times the blind with 95 suited on the button doesnt mean I'm a moron, I'm just hoping to get it heads up and bet that the person doesnt hit a decent part of the flop to be able to call another one or 2 decent size bets. It takes balls though and you need to be aware of the type of player your up against. I think it's very hard to play against "maniacs" as they're making you play the way they want you to play, making you loosen up and making a few bad calls. You also have to change gears when you're the maniac aswell because once you're exposed the whole table will have you down as a useless player, so then is the time to start playing premium hands.
This is actually my main question here. Should I bet to try to isolate, or just call pre-flop and wait till I hit a hand. When a maniac is present, people start disregarding aces alltogether, and you therefore often get some monster family pots built pre-flop. When this happens, people have pot odds (or think they do) to stick around with anything. When you keep it small you might get some better tools for limiting the field after the flop. So should I simply stop start raising altogether here?
This post assumes you're sitting on the maniac's left.
I think it will depend on your opponents other than the maniac. He's going to play generally the same way, but the rest of the field is what you have to look out for. When they catch on to your isolation raises and start capping your 3bet with medium hands as well, then it's probably in your best interest to find a new table. Tightening up is not an option for me shorthanded, you're paying too much in blinds to wait around for monsters.
I think just calling the maniac with intention of folding if the flop misses is your worst option here. He'd be getting at least 5:1 on his flop bluffs (if you just called him) so if you fold to him more than 20% of the time it's automatically profitable to him to bet! You're just plain giving your money to him in that scenario and achieving his goals for him. I think anytime you manage to get it heads-up with the maniac, you gotta grit your teeth and go to showdown. If you get involved in a multiway capped pot, then your pot odds should dictate your path but it is going to get expensive because you're probably ahead of the maniac but behind the rest of the field, who now has position on you putting you in bad shape to get whipsawed. If you don't get whipsawed, then you should get good odds to chase just about any 5-outer and up, but it's going to be a highly variant but profitable situation. However, a few of these capped multiway pots should make up for your losses. In the multiway situation, One win will breakeven with two losses if you call all bets on the river. However, if you don't call on the river when you don't improve then one win should make up for about 3 losses or so.
If you have just one maniac and a weak-tight field, then that's your dream! If a weak-tighty caps it behind you, then you are behind and you'll have to imrpove to win but you gotta call for the 11:1 right now plus the huge implied odds. Add in another agressive player behind you to the mix and you're in bad shape. Too much gambling and "hit to win" for my tastes, but I prefer less variance even at the expense of some profit.
I see this guy is being called a maniac now. I don't see it that way. A true maniac is typically a bad player and requires far less strategy to outplay. This guy sounds more like a bully who knows exactly what he's doing. You try to play against a bully like you would a maniac and you can kiss your chips goodbye.
A maniac doesn't ever want to be called, but a bully does. Big difference!
You got that right. the big difference between this guy and a normal maniac is that he will bet weak hands very strongly, but he wont cap it on later rounds without some kind of hand to show down.
Consider this hand.
Maniac raise and I reraise with AK. flop comes rags. He checks, i bet and he cheak raise me!
now what do you think he has. J30 for a pair of 3s on the flop. But he would have played his set the same way, and AK unimproved for that matter and sometimes even less.
Bully is a good term - as my question was not aimed at playing bullys in general (wait and they will pay you back bigtime when you hit a hand), but this particular guy with the strategy described above. If you start doing some thought experiments on his strategy, you will probably find (as I did the hard way) that he is way tougher then the average maniac, simply because he didn't cap without some kind of hand. The maniac is uaually just a player on tilt. This dude might have been as well, but geee do I wish I played that well when I tilt.
I posted a story a while back about the first time I got "bullied" at a table. Same situation...he is on my left, calls my preflop raise or he raises and I three bet. Almost every flop, he would check raise and when I had missed, I would dump the hand.
He was able to recognize that I was tight and somewhat of a rock...and rocks are easy to move off of hands when they don't hit.
Once I realized this...after the session...I had the opportunity to play with him again, and he tried the same moves, and I played back at him. Most of these hands, he would muck or call and fold on the turn. I also did experiment with playing on his right, and found that he would push the same way, but would let up if I pushed back. Overall, it was easier for me to play on his left.
I think they key is, that if you see a pattern like this with this type of player...and make no mistake, this is a good aggressive player...you need to isolate this player and sometimes decide whether you have a better starting hand than him and push till the river. You will lose many pots, but you should win many more pots.
While this may happen at a full table, or a six max, your game has to shift to shorthanded mode....and you will not be able to sit back and wait to hit big hands in big pots. If you find this player playing most hands, and can isolate the two of you, you will have to take hands farther than you are probably comfortable with...and lead with them the whole way.
Decided to go play some poker last night....was delighted to find no wait for the 20/40 at Harras East Chicago. I recognize about 5 of the players, and the other 4 are unknown to me...but I like to try to make assumptions about players using a variety of factors...and this did not appear to be a tough table.
Up and down for the first hour or so. Got up about 250 and then had a couple of heartbreakers. A very nice and attractive lady who I have played with before counterfiets my two pair twice, once taking the entire pot, and chopping the second.
Can't fault her play, but runner-runner pair on the board killed my hand twice, one of which I knew I had her AA cracked. I did...but runner runner KK gave her the pot...oh well. She almost dropped on the turn, unsure of whether I had a set or two pair....she talked herself into two pair and just did not want to let the AA go....it paid off.
I got her back later on though when I rivered the nut flush after she had flopped a set. She checkraised me on the turn, and I got an extra bet back out of her on the river when I hit. I finally got her back...and while she was not happy about losing the pot, we had some friendly banter about the hand and about how I finally got her back. No more confrontations with her...but enjoyed playing with her.
So back to about even....and have been playing pretty straight...not too many moves. Unfortunately, shortly after I get caught with my pants down on a 10-high bluff where I had raised preflop with 10s-9s. He called me down with 10-10 with a K and J on the board. Good read on his part I guess....he told me later he was calling me down regardless....so I was finally caught, consider it advertising paid for. Actually...I paid for one more advertising spot...1 more bluff caught
Strangely enough...I start getting mucho action. I raise preflop and get 12 callers...not really, but people really were weary of me. This worked to my advantage as I made a few hands here and there....nothing too memorable. But I have made up for my failed bluffs and am hovering around $1000...even.
Soon, I make my biggest move of the night...proud of it too. From the BB I call a mid position raise with 5d-3d. Flop was 4-7-9 and I check call, intending to checkraise the turn. The turn is a beatiful 9 and I check, he bets, I raise and he calls....a little(lot) worried about the call here but he folds to my bet on the river. You may think I am crazy for attempting this move...but sometimes you just get a feeling and have to follow through. He had caught me on a bluff earlier and I knew that he thought I wouldn't try it again....I did..and it worked.
Then the game gets interesting as a big asian (no offense) guy sits in the 10 seat. He is very friendly and playing the... "I don't know what I am doing role". He cracks my two pair after he raises the come on the turn and hits on the river....I am starting to think he knows what he is doing...pretty strong move there.
I had about 2 more altercations with him in the next hour or so...both times he raised me on the turn or river....both times I reluctantly called....and WON! He really had me guessing. He stuck around for another half hour or so and took his 1500 to the big game...pot limit omaha, people sitting with 5G in this game. As he is getting up, he happily thanks everyone for putting up with his "newbieness" and says, what the heck, I am going to go give the "pot limit holdem" game a try. I let him know that it is omaha...and he says "oh...ok...whatever". I am curious...still not sure If I am buying his bit...and ask if he knows how to play omaha. He says no....but he wants to give it a try!!! He was not joking. And he really didn't know what he was doing. I didn't see how he did....but I guarantee he created some tilt in that game. While he wasn't an expert on either game...he was pretty fearless and had the kind of disgregard for chips that can make either a really good...or a really bad player. I'd love to know how he did.
Ok...to the snot-nose. Towards the end of my night....I am up about 300 or so...not bad... Anyhoo...this kid sits at our table who doesn't look a day over 16. No offense to anyone out there like this kid...but he is your standard nerdy kid with no social skills who finds poker and becomes "big man" at the table. By the way he ways about 100lbs, has glasses, and that 15 year old "growing facial hair, but don't yet shave - moustache kinda thing." Anyway, he starts in with his expertise...commenting on hands...chattering away...you know, he's a big shot. Now mind you...I am only 26, and I was his age not long ago...but I have always conducted myself in a certain manner at the poker table...and for some reason he is just rubbing me wrong. I play along though and listen to him chastice my friend to raised preflop to which the snot cold called....raised on the flop and then my buddy turned the flush. The kid was up in arms about his pair that got run down. A few hands later...snot is in the SB and UTG raises to 40. This is my last orbit and I decide to play my Ah-Jh hard and raise to 60. Snot nose cold calls 3 bets(2.5) and UTG caps...ooops. All call. Flop is low with 2 hearts and UTG bets out and I raise....snot cold calls 2 more bets and UTG calls. Turn is a blank and both check to me, and I decide to take the free card....looking back I should have bet...my bad....river is a blank and we all check. UTG doesnt want to show and I say A high as he mucks....little snot-nose kid turns over a pair of threes. Argh!!!!! Now I know I missed a chance to win the pot on the turn...but come on...capped flop in a 20/40 game with 33 and then cold call 2 more on the flop with nothing.. I am biting my tongue...that is until he says something snide about having the best hand the whole way. I say...get outa here...still maintaining my composure....and he says something like that again. I am started to get annoyed...well already annoyed by him and I just say, you keep cold calling my 3 bets with with pocket 33...and we'll see how far you last. I really wanted to ask him if it was past his bedtime....but thats not really me...and I decided not to be a jerk..and that I had already given him too many free lessons....two more hands...muck, muck and I cashed out up 200....not bad...but damn that hand woulda put me up about 500...oh well.
Moral of the story....none...just thought I'd give a session report for once. By the way, I really mean no offense to the kid nor to anyone who may act like...or resemble him...he was just buggin me and why not vent about him here and let you guys laugh about it??!!
