Texas Holdem Poker
OK, so its Sunday afternoon and I'm sitting here drinking a Pepsi (beer comes later ) and reading Sklansky's Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players. I must admit, he does introduce some radical ideas in the text.
In the section I am reading, he is making a lot of references to large multi-way pots...7+ players seeing the flop. This has sparked a question in my mind...
When you get to the level of 'advanced' play, whatever that means, what do you find the typical percentage of players seeing the flop is? For arguments sake, let's say 10/20 or higher at your local B&M.
The reason I bring this up (other than Dave's text sparking some thoughts) is partly due to the game I played in yesterday. Sorry guys, no bad beat stories (although I have a couple ). Anyway, it was a 5/10 game in a B&M which also spread $1-3, $2/4, and $3/6 (higher limits as well). I must say, I was appalled by some of the play I saw...60-70% consistently seeing the flop, one woman seeing 95-100% of the flops (no joke), raises from MP with 42(s), you get the idea. In all seriousness, I have played many $1-3 games tighter than this.
Here is what I am getting at. For those that play 10/20 and higher, do you see tables with 60-70% seeing the flop? I have asked similar questions on the forum before to the effect of 'When does advanced play start'. The responses were 'it depends' if I recall correctly although Z brought up some excellent points as usual. Z is the one who drilled it into my head that you need to adjust your play to the table/players no matter what the limit. Good point, but are a lot of large multi-way pots seen at higher limits? Just seems odd to me.
OK, going to go read some more and will most likely start a new thread or 2 on specific play. Later.
Well I don't know about B&M as I haven't got too much live experience, but online I'd suggest you gave 30-60 @ stars a go. That sure is a dry table most of the time.
The best live game I've played was a 3-6$ home game I played last night. Flop% was around 25% there.
But I still think that what you need is not better opponents - it's accepting the fact that you will win fewer but bigger pots when involved in a lose game. AA will lose as often as it wins in a very lose game. But it is nonetheless more profitable in a loose game then in a tight one.
Point well taken. I took your advice when first offered and started to really focus on the table/oppenents. I can honestly say that I am doing better since I started doing this. I only play one table, keep notes on just about everyone, try and classify someone within a few hands, and watch most of the hands played very closely. I think it makes a difference. I don't know how some people play 3 or 4 tables at a time and not give up this info.
As for the game yesterday, it was a winning session so I can't complain. But, I still like tighter games better. I really like the 2/4 game at UB. Usually about 35% seeing the flop and not too many people being too stupid. Its perfect for me, I get to play in a tight game and don't have to play 10/20 or higher which I am definitely not ready for online. But, I would have no problem playing 10/20 live in a B&M. That said, keep in mind I have never played Vegas in the middle of the day on a weekday when all the pros are out LOL.
I played in Stars last FPP event to get into the WSOP 10k NL event. Buy in was 6k frequent player points and there were just over 400 players. Top 3 get paid trip and entry to WSOP.
I was feeling lucky when I sat down. About 5 hands into I get the bullets in EP. I know how to play this one I call the 20 chip blind and wait for the raise to come. Two positions behind me a player makes the raise I was waiting for. I come over the top all in, he quickly calls with kings. No king to be seen and I double up right off the bat...smoking start!
I make my first marginal play not too long after. Raise 4x the BB with 67s, money is deep and I get 5 callers. Flop has the 5 and 4 of my suit so I have the flush draw and the straight draw. I bet out too small, about 150 into a 400 pot and get 1 caller, turn is a blank and I check it. Caller bets big and I lay it down. Bleh, bad hand I know.
Then marginal play #2. I am in the BB with ATs couple of limpers and the button makes it 4x the big blind. I didn't fear a reraise from the limpers and I had a decent stack for a change so I call along with the 2 original limpers. ATo I would have folded, but it was sooooted so I played it. Flop comes 3,9,T with one of my suit. Normally I am happy with TPTK and a backdoor flush draw, but my instinct said I might be in trouble here. I check to the raiser with the intention of check raising if the perflop raiser makes a "I'm scared" size bet. He makes a modest bet and I check raise him as planned.
Does anyone else check raise for information? This is something I started doing when there was a LP raise and I flop top pair. Basically I want to find out on the flop if I am ahead or not. I figure that if I bet out a raise could mean anything. Most players follow up a preflop raise with a raise on the flop so I don't know much about his hand if I bet and get raised. Much fewer players will reraise a check raiser without an overpair or better though.
As it was in this hand, the limpers fold and I get reraised. I wanted to either win the pot right there or lay my hand down when he came over me big. Trouble is he didn't come over me big. He made a minimal reraise so I had the odds to call. I figured he had a good pair, kings or queens. Unfortunately, I catch and ace on the turn making top two pair. I push in he calls with poket tens. Damn, major hit to the stack. I am now short stacked.
Few hands later I am in the BB with AK. Button makes a standard raise and the SB who barely has me covered goes all in. I smell weakness and call. I'm right the SB has AQ, I am golden until the queen lands on the turn, then I am busted.
Basically I overplayed my hands and paid the price. Oh well...next time.
This is something I used to do too, until I read in Cloutier´s book that one shouldn´t play a hand just because it is suited if it would be a fold if it´s not.
I analyzed my hands I have played because they were suited like AT, AJ, KJ, KQ. boy, these were real trouble hands that cost me quite some money.
problem I had that most of the time, I had a pair and a flush draw and I chased, believing that if I didn´t hit, a good pair would be enough.
I stopped doing it and my results have become better with fewer swings.
I was recently in a tourny at Pokerstars, big one $200 buy-in, over a 1000 entries, 1st place $57,500. I've only played in a couple of these big payoff tournys, I got in through a satelite, anyway, its the 2nd hand (I'm MstrMore) Did I screw up or what????
********** # 2 **************
PokerStars Game #438639555: Tournament #1529679, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2004/05/16 - 16:31:05 (ET)
Table '1529679 103' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: ButchTimothy (2500 in chips)
Seat 3: team sex (2500 in chips)
Seat 4: jr50 (2640 in chips)
Seat 5: MstrMore (2480 in chips)
Seat 6: monkeyJH (2500 in chips)
Seat 7: Hot Girl 1 (2500 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 8: LeroyB (2480 in chips)
Seat 9: stiihl (2400 in chips)
MstrMore: posts small blind 10
monkeyJH: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MstrMore [As Qs]
Hot Girl 1: folds
LeroyB: calls 20
stiihl: raises 120 to 140
ButchTimothy: folds
team sex: folds
jr50: folds
MstrMore: raises 120 to 260
monkeyJH: folds
LeroyB: folds
stiihl: calls 120
*** FLOP *** [Th Ac 8s]
PeterG is connected
MstrMore: bets 150
stiihl: raises 930 to 1080
MstrMore: calls 930
*** TURN *** [Th Ac 8s] [7s]
MstrMore: checks
stiihl: bets 1060 and is all-in
MstrMore: folds
PeterG has returned
stiihl collected 2720 from pot
stiihl: doesn't show hand
Should I of gone All-in after the flop, instead of my weak $150 bet????
Should I have went All-in after his $980 raise????
My folding at the end, was it to overly cautious, do I need some balls or what. I just didn't want to get knocked out the 2nd hand, I was thinking he could have AK, I get out kicked. He hit a set with a low pair. Then he jumped on the 7 at(4th st), that made me think he could have suited connectors and the 7 made his straight, so I thought it best to cut my losses and fold. I know I had top pair and good kicker, I also had a 4 flush, I just didn't want to risk getting booted the 2nd hand. Bad Move?????? this hand is nawwwwwiing at me. I never recovered my chip loss, ended up 2nd best on three later hands and got booted early anyway.
The only hands that would make a straight on that board would be 69 or 9J, so that kills your fear of the suited connectors which usually aren't raising hands anyways. I would have played the hand a little differently myself, though by any means does that say it's the best way to play it. I would have made a pot-sized re-raise preflop to take back control of the hand OR I would have flat-called to disguise my holding since I'm going to be out of position for the rest of the hand. Minimum raises don't accomplish anything besides building the pot. I would have gone for a healthy check-raise on the flop OR I would have made about a pot-sized bet on the flop with your top pair/good kicker with the extra backoor flush possibility. If you get re-raised all-in here then you have to decide how much you want to gamble. You can't be up against an overpair, but I'd venture to guess that I'm either facing a set,top two pair or a weaker ace if your opponent is weak. If I do call the flop raise for half my chips then I'm pot-committed and I'm seeing this hand to the end and I probably would have pushed in myself when I picked up the nut flush draw on the turn. Calling can only win if you have the best hand, betting can win if you have the best hand or your opponent folds. Alternatively, it is early in the tourney so you can get away from this hand on the flop easily and wait for more clear-cut choices later or you can gamble it up and try for a quick double-up or bust.
The only way to win is to not fear losing.
