Having said on here no more than a few days back that I wouldn't be buying directly into the UB $500 Sunday night comp, I duly misplaced my self control and did just that, mostly on the back of being annoyed at going out on a bad beat in the qualifying satellite yesterday.
Anyway, was up and down like a yo-yo most of the comp. After losing a 50-50 I was shortest stack out of 30 runners with 1800, blinds 200-400 with my BB next. I moved all-in with absolute junk about 6 times in 2 rounds and managed to get back to average stack. Then with 12 left I reraise all-in with KK, AQ calls flop is QQx... Fought back again with the help of winning a 50-50. Anyway, to the main point of the post. 5 players left. Heres a summary of the payouts to put the hand in perspective.
Place Prize
1st 30.00% $18,000.00 ( + $10000 Aruba Trip)
2nd 20.00% $12,000.00
3rd 13.00% $7,800.00
4th 7.80% $4,680.00
5th 5.50% $3,300.00
I'm currently in 2nd place. Heres the hand history.
Hand #1445949-36 at Sun7pm500-Final (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 18/Apr/04 22:57:24
wsaul is at seat 0 with 39545.
HOTROB is at seat 4 with 100610.
dead_money is at seat 5 with 9370.
kamrann is at seat 6 with 50150.
westtexasman is at seat 7 with 40325.
The button is at seat 0.
HOTROB posts ante (150).
wsaul posts ante (150).
westtexasman posts ante (150).
kamrann posts ante (150).
dead_money posts ante (150).
dead_money posts the small blind of 800.
kamrann posts the big blind of 1600.
wsaul: -- --
HOTROB: -- --
dead_money: -- --
kamrann: Qh Qs
westtexasman: -- --
Pre-flop:
westtexasman calls. wsaul folds. HOTROB raises to
7950. dead_money folds. kamrann goes all-in for
50000. westtexasman goes all-in for 40175. HOTROB
calls.
Tournament all-in showdown -- players show:
HOTROB shows 5s 5c.
kamrann shows Qh Qs.
westtexasman shows Ks Kh.
Flop (board: 3d 4d 2d):
(no action in this round)
Turn (board: 3d 4d 2d 7h):
(no action in this round)
River (board: 3d 4d 2d 7h 3c):
(no action in this round)
Showdown:
HOTROB has 5s 5c 3d 7h 3c: two pair, fives and threes.
kamrann has Qh Qs 3d 7h 3c: two pair, queens and threes.
westtexasman has Ks Kh 3d 7h 3c: two pair, kings and threes.
Damn! I did't like the guys UTG flat call, but can I do this differently? I figure its already a nice pot to take down given the guy on the button has put in a pot-sized raise, and I'm almost certain I got him beat. Hmm, just writing this I realise I messed up big time. All I'm worried about is the UTG limper having AA or KK, and I could have found this out cheaper if I'd flat called the raise on my right, or reraised a modest amount. He then would have moved all-in, and I could have gotten away from it minimally damaged. Its possible that he may have AK and do the same, but still I'm happy to put down my QQ in that situation anyway. Crap, that cost me (potentially) a hell of a lot of money. Well, at least I've answered my question - I did play it bad. Live and learn...
Tip to self and anyone else: take time before all decisions, even if it seems like a no-brainer initially - often there's a better move to make than the obvious.
I hung on for 4th in the end, so not a bad evenings work for sure, but a little disappointing nontheless. Aruba looks so damn nice....
It´s kind of a tough decision if your all-in was justified, of course afterwards everything looks more clear but you had to assume that you had the best hand, due to the UTG player just limping in with KK, that was either a cute or stupid move. If there´s alot of agressiveness pre-flop, it´s ok to limp in with KK, so maybe this was his plan and it worked out perfectly.
Then I´d like to know why you are happy to lay down your QQ after being re-raised all-in, because that´s exactly what a lot of people holding AKo do. And then you´d give away your chances of eliminating this opponent, getting you one step close to win it all, or am I on the wrong track here?
I mean, how many chances do you get when you are the favorite and have the opportunity to knock others out?
I was watching Kamrann and the others play last night for about an hour or so. It was EXTREMELY aggressive preflop at the this point. The blinds were 800/1600 with an ante of 125. No one made less than a pot sized bet and less than 20% of the hands even made it as far as the flop. Laying down QQ would have been tough to do but probably would have been the right move if Kamrann had made a large bet, but less than all-in, and someone came over the top. You would almost be assured the raiser had an overcard or higher pair.
The river beats in the last hour or so of this tournament were unbelievable.
Good job Kamrann....I was very impressed by both your play and the eventual winner wsaul. I'm sorry you didn't at least outlast hotrob, you were clearly a better player, he was just getting better cards. It was fun to watch though...it is a whole different brand of Hold'em then the $5 and $10 sng's I usually play in.
Regarding the AK thing. The reason I say I would have been 'happy' to lay down the QQ was that if I had flat called the raise on my right, or raised it a little, and the UTG flat caller had moved all-in, I would have been 99% certain that he had either AA, KK or AK. I know he's a good player, as were all left at that point (with the possible exception of HOTROB? I hadn't been on his table most of the night so wasn't sure, but his overcall in that hand with 55 is inexplicable...), so I would give him credit for having limped with one of these three hands rather than be trying an ambitious steal at that point. Given this I'm happy to fold - I'd still have about 30K left and be pretty much average stacked still. If I could be 100% certain he had AK, even then I'm only 50-50, although I'd probably have to call at that point since with the amount already in the pot a win would make me chip leader.
So that was my thinking. Pity it wasn't what I was thinking at the time.
I didn't get to play against HOTROB, but WestTexasMan was the who busted me out with his jacks against my A-K...saying he was an aggressive player would be an understatement.
I agree with your take on being worried about the UTG limper. Certainly, you don't fold queens preflop (unless you had an absolute read on WestTexas that told you he had the pocket kings; tough to do in online poker, though), but I'd have either raised a good amount (e.g., 20,000) or just flat called. If WestTexas did not have a hand worth calling the raise with, then he's gone...and you're likely headsup against two overcards (presumably HotRob, although I'm not sure what the hell he was doing calling an all-in from two players in front of him...he was in first chip position, with the next two big stacks doing serious battle with each other...why not just dump the pocket 5s and sit safely on the sidelines?). If instead, WestTexas calls your raise, then I'd be very wary of any overcards falling on the flop or any flop raises. If WestTexas raises after you either call or raise, I'd be gone in a flash (this is the disciplined DirtyDirty talkin'!). I'm always wary of any early position limpers who then come out firing reraises...although I've seen some a couple jokers do this with pocket tens and pocket eights before, it typically means pocket cowboys or American Airlines. Either way, you can probably find a better spot to play.
Again, awesome finish, particularly since you were down to the felt with about 30 people left in the tourney. You obviously did a good job keeping your head in it, and continued playing smart poker...buying into that "chip and a chair" philosophy just netted you over $4100 in profit!
You have QQ and see a 8k raise. You can expect to be isolated with the original better with only 1 player remaining and for that player to very likely fold.
Lets say you called Hotrob's $7950 bet. Are you sure Westtexasman would have gone all-in? It looks to me like he was trying to get someone else all-in.
If you call and then westexasman calls and the flop is 234 what do you do now? If hotrob now goes all in (which he would probably do) now would you drop? What if Hotrob now with 10 outs checks to you? wouldn't you have still gone all-in here since you, much less than westtexasman, can't handle an overcard?
If you raise a small amount does the situation really change?
What if you had checked and an overcard comes on the flop? You would be kicking yourself for the next year for that missed opportunity. Or are you now going to bet at it?
I think under the vast majority of cirumstances KK is going to beat QQ no matter how you play it. I believe that in the long run you will make a lot more money by going all-in with QQ than by playing it slowly or folding it against a raise.
I think you played it exactly right and just got unlucky that another player was sitting on a KK at the same time.
I don't think that WestTex would have smoothcalled there on the flop...with pocket kings, he'd want to protect his hand a little better, particularly since there were two players in the pot who had already called raises.
However, had WestTex just smoothcalled the preflop raise after you'd just called HotRob's raise, I agree with MobyWhite that it would have been tough to lay down queens at that point. However, going all-in after the flop with queens is, in my opinion, a better play than preflop. Suppose that at least one of your opponents held A-K and another either missed flopping his set or held A-J or A-Q. At this point, you'd have a much greater advantage after the flop than you would have had preflop...if you go all-in here and get beat by the kings, well, them's the breaks...but if you go all-in with the queens, get called by an A-K preflop, then you're stuck all-in in a coin flip situation. I'd much rather wait till after the flop to get all my money in.
This brings up an interesting thought that I've been thinking a lot about recently: It seems that many players are willing to put it all on the line preflop, when there are certainly times it might be better to wait until later rounds to attack (when the odds are better that your hand will hold odd, yet the pot odds and implied odds are equal to what they might have been preflop)...just something to consider.
Clearly, there are plenty of ways to play this, and you're bound to lose all your chips on this hand unless an A, K or obvious straight or flush falls on the board.
I'm impressed by WestTex's play on the hand, really. From my experiences with him, he bet and raised with just about everything, and would lean on his stack at times. So for him to slowplay the kings by limping preflop like that was seemingly out of character for him. Kamrann, if you can, tell us more about his final table play, and if this influenced your decision on this particular hand at all.
Moby, thanks for your comments on the hand. I think what you're saying is that if I call and see a flop I'm not really in any better a position and the outcome would probably be the same. And indeed it could be worse since I may be letting someone hit an A or K for cheap. I fully agree with you on this.
In your examples, yes, if HotRob then went all-in on the flop I'd probably call since I think I'm beating him all the way (the only reason I say probably is because the flop is all diamonds). If he checked, I'm not sure whether I'd move in or not, again because of the diamonds.
But anyway, the main point I was trying to make in wondering if I played it wrong was that I may have been able to get away from the hand without even seeing a flop, if I flat call or raise a little and WestTexasMan moves in. And yes, I do believe he would have done so, if he's any sort of player at all, and I believe he is. If he wants to take the risk there by just calling then thats his bad - although obviously in this particular case it'd work since he'd most likely get all my chips. In general though, at that stage of a tournament with that many chips already in the pot, he should just want to take the pot down there and then. Would be extremely stupid of him to risk an A flopping.
It is a tough one, but next time hopefully I'll at least think a while before pushing all my chips in.
I mostly play shorthanded these days. Playing shorthanded there are two ways your game can fall to peaces. You can get over aggressive (tilt) or you can start to play weak passive. While I almost never tilt these days, I do get weak passive at times after getting slapped over my fingers a couple of times in a row.
How do you manage to maintain a tight aggressive style when the deck is absolutely ice cold for the day? All of a sudden I find it really hard to represent a hand by betting, as they stop fearing me, as I don’t show down any winners (only whiners ). How do you deal with that? It feels like nobody respect the raise from a loser, and that limits my options considerably. So what strategy adjustments should I make when running cold, to counteract my tendency to start playing scared?
Online, I think you should switch tables when you aren't faring too well on one table. There's got to be a better table to play on. Like you said, once you get beaten a few times in a row you become a target to the other players. I find absolutely no sense in playing with opponents inspired to outplay me when I am a few seconds away from a new table with opponents who don't see me as an easy target. When it gets to that point, you can only win by catching cards. Adding the natural passive-reactive mode you can fall into after a few beats, your EV drops into the negative. Mine does when I get into this spot. I've learned to get up and walk around and take a few minutes to clear my head and get ready to fight again somewhere else on my terms.
When the cards are running cold, there is not too much you can do but wait it out. As for full table play, patience is the key. I believe you must adapt your style to the way cards are falling. If they are running cold, I find I spend most of my day folding pre-flop. It doesn't make any sense to try and get agressive when the probability of the flop or turn heading south on you is so high. Now, by cold decked, I mean not many playable hands pre-flop and you can forget hitting any draws you go after. I spent the first 3 months of this year cold decked and it sucks. Playing out of position just ends up costing you money, being over agressive costs you money, going after draws without proper odds costs you money, etc. It is just really not a good situation to be in.
So, I guess my advice is to try and not beat cold decks. Continueing to be agressive will only hurt you unless you know the players well and pick the right hands to bluff with. And then, you can't do it too much because people will catch on and start to call you down. Once they see some crap at showdown, be prepared for them to call you down everytime.
Remember the difference between yourself and a fish is winning more money with good hands and losing less with bad hands. There are some days when I walk away down $1K and think to myself I did well considering the cards.
I second the change tables strategy, if that is possible. If the cards are cold, you are playing shorthanded, and still trying to play TA with a LA table reputation that is a recipe for disaster.
When I get cold, I go play stud for a while...usually, when this happens you are losing for reasons that you don't know, and you aren't focused on the game at hand...I like to get a fresh perspective and play a different game for an hour or two...
As it happens I have always used switching game types for these situations. shorthanded holde, full ring holdem, tourney holdem, stud hilo and PL omaha. Usually there's at least one of these where I'm running good. Just not right this week.
Switching tables have also worked with me before.
So I know that your recommendations are right on. But somehow my ability to see straight is the first thing that goes when I start to run bad. So thanks setting my mind straight again.
I guess what I need now is to move down a bit. Regain my self confidence and get back up there and whip some ass
Some sessions you just don't get many starting hands and you get no help from the board, and those are the frustrating sessions of poker that we all endure I'm sure.
If you change your play to weak passive that is a kind of tilt stemming from the frustration of getting nothing.
Sometimes these sessions lead me to limp in with hands that maybe I shouldn't have or going too far, because I am a little on tilt.
Here is what i somtimes do and it may not be the most sound strategy:
When I get rediculously bad cards for a while, I tighten my starting hand requirements. I then only play hands that I will raise with based on the game and my position, I stop limping. For a while I only raise. (Folding and raising a lot is not a bad way to play anyway) I know, blinds, but you will get blinded off slower than you will chasing hands. It becomes hard to throw away hands you would limp with, but it forces you to stay tight.
If you go like this a while and win a pot or two, you have a different image than the player you really are, so when you get past the funk and go back to your normal style who knows.
