6/12 limit game. I flop an open ended that hits on the turn. On the river I bet from early position and thought both guys still in had folded, so I pushed my cards still face down to the side to get my pot. Turns out one guy didn't fold, so when I realize this I go to flip my cards and show my straight and the other guy starts screaming I mucked my cards and shows his 2 pair. Startled, I ask the dealer if I can turn my cards she says no they were mucked. Why the F would I muck a str8 that I bet on? Furthermore, the cards were still within my easy arm reach to the side, and had not been touched by the dealer.
Let's back up 1 hour, when another guy threw his cards all the way to the dealer "box" on top of other cards and was allowed to take them back I suspect because he was a "regular" and an older guy.
So I call the supervisor over and he rules I had mucked my cards by placing them to the side. 1/2 the table is in an uproar because the dealer screwed the pooch so bad and was now covering her azz, my hand was definitely not "mucked", and they all saw the hand 1 hour prior where a guy was allowed to take his cards out of the muck pile, not to mention the floor supervisor told me their "rules" are supposed to be flexible for fairness and this was not fair by any stretch.
I stayed around long enough to make the screamer pay me off AA v KK and left.
Excellent post Racer...If you know how, please move a copy over to the thread about "unwritten rules of hold'em."
We are here to welcome the newcomer, not ridicule him, and this kind of post really highlights that. If any of you are new to the game, or new to live play after extensive online experience, this post is a must read. It might never happen in your playing experience, but once is enough, as no one wants to give up an edge.
I learned the hard way, too. And it was followed by a patronizing call from the floor, and yes, the other player was a fixture in the room and I was a visitor.
After the hand was over, the guy to my right whispered to me to watch him next time he had a showdown at the river, which turned out to be a while as he was tight as the bark on a tree!!!
But he went to a showdown (multiway), and placed his cards face up directly in front of his chips but "in the circle", but HIS HAND NEVER LEFT HIS CARDS until he saw a hand that he was sure had beaten him.
He had top pair, beaten by three of a kind on the river. When he saw the trips, he turned his cards over and tossed them in front of the dealer. He did not wait to see any other hand, as he only wanted to make sure he was beaten before mucking his hand by passing it to the dealer.
This is an unwritten law for me now, as I have seen three or four occasions where dealer and players misread the hands, usually to be corrected and causing a big ruckus if a hand had been mucked.
Use Racer's experience and don't have to learn this one the hard way!!!
From the Tropicana Poker Rule Book "It shall be the responsiblitly of all players to protect their hand until they are satisfied that it has lost to all hands at the table"..."A player who fails to take reasonable means to protect their hand shall have no redress if their hand becomes foulded or the dealer accidently collects the hand"..."Any player, dealer or floorperson who sees an error about to be made in awarding a pot has an ethical obligation to speak up"..."A discarded hand which has never been properly identified that is turned face up by the dealer at another player's request cannot win any part of the pot. The dealer should touch the hand to the muck before turning it up, but this gesture is done only to avoid an argument, and is not considered necessary from a legal standpoint in order to have the hand be dead"...."If a floorperson feels that a player deliberately miscalled his hand in an attempt to make other players throw their hands away, an attempt will be made to retrieve any hands that were discarded"...Definitioins: FOULED HAND - A hand that either has an improper number of cards or has come into contact with other cards in such a way as to render it impossible to determine accurately which cards are contained in the hand".....MUCK - The discarded pile of cards. As a verb it means to put a hand into the discard pile thereby killing it; PROTECTED HAND - Cards whick the player is physically holding or has secured by placing a chip (s) on them.
But racer was on both sides of this fence...by the rules posted at Trop, his hand was not mucked. But it was not protected either.
I think he got a bum call myself.
But back to the protected hand thingy, if he had protected his hand by holding on to it, there would have been no doubt.
Damn Racer, that was F'ing BS. If that happened to me, I probably would have embarassed myself by the scene I caused afterwards. I feel you were definitely in the right on this one. Your cards never touched the muck, you never said fold, and the dealer didn't collect your hand. The floor really dropped the ball on that one.
Jimmy - you bring up an excellent point. I usually fold when I know I'm beat on the river. For instance, I was playing in a room the other night and held AK(o). Heads up by the river and I had caught my K on the flop. Board pairs 7s on the river. I bet out, get called, and the other guy says '2 pair'. A Jack came on the flop as well so I was thinking he had Ks and Js. I said, 'It's good' and tossed my hand in face up. He turned his over and he had Ks, the 7s on the board, and a weaker kicker. Luckily, the dealer awarded the pot to me but it could have gone the other since 'it's good' could be perceived as folding. I learned a valuable lesson. I was in a mindset where I totally disregarded the pair on the board when thinking about what I had or calling out my hand. A stupid mistake which almost cost me a pot.
Yes, pokerchris, the rules from the Tropicana are similar to the rules at the Ameristar, and jimmyjohn is also right that by the rules, spirit and letter, my hand had not yet been mucked. Bottom line, I was screwed.
I am a regular at the Ameristar Casino and I've done this a couple of times and was always able to flip my cards up as long as they didn't touch the muck or the dealer didn't touch them.
Just out of curiousity, who was the floor supervisor or what did he look like? There is one guy there that not many care for because he often screws up like this.
Sorry to hear about your loss. Next time this happens, request that they go to the eye in the sky and let them sort it out.
Also, there are a number of new dealers that just started this month. A few of them are really struggling right now. You will often see the regulars giving these guys a hand on what to do becuase they are just too green to know what to do all the time.
If I were you racer I would keep returning and only play with that particulal dealer. Every pot you win, take the lot and don't give the dealer a penny.
Really large guy, not so tall, but really large if you know who I'm talking about, he is there all the time. The dealer was Sharon who I normally (had) like(d).
David, the other floor super, was cool about it and agreed to reinvestigate, but it was an hour later before I decided for sure I had been F'd versus just being mad, so by then the story from the dealer and floor super who came over first I'm sure was that I threw my cards away into the stack and they were being re-dealt....
Define "Protecte your Cards" Do you have to sit there with a pitch fork and growl at anybody that comes within a couple of feet of your cards?
If you were playing at night, he would have had back hair and a bit of facial hair (I think his name is Tony). He's usually allright. Sharon is a good dealer so I'm suprised that she did that. In fact, I've been there a few times where the big blind tried mucking their hand forgetting that they were the big blind and she ended up letting them play it. David too is a good guy. You could have probably gotten a good comp, like a free buffet, if you would have asked and been polite about the mistake. Just remember for future reference.
In live play, at the end of the hand that goes to showdown and a winner/winners has to be determined, some people will throw their cards in the middle before a final ruling has been made by the dealer. Until you are absolutely sure you have won/lost/split the pot, you should have your two cards in front of you where the dealer can see them, but still keep one hand on them. The reason for this is in case someone else who has lost should throw their hand toward the dealer or muck pile, your cards will not be mixed up with other cards. If that happens, it becomes "word of honor" as to which two are yours. I will not quote anything about "no honor among thieves" at this point....lol.
Also, if the dealer misreads and is declaring someone else the winner, when in fact you have won or should split the pot, you have not relinquished your hand in any way. Some showdowns end up with 4 or 5 hands in contention, and the dealer has quite a job sorting things out. Usually the dealer is being "helped" by several of the players, which makes it really confusing. The dealer will sometimes find the winner did not know he or she had won, and is remaining silent, thinking they have been beat.
But in retrospect, in some really tough games, the pitchfork and growling might not be a bad idea!!!
OK guys, I haven't been keeping up to date on these forums because I have been really busy with school. But tonight I was able to go to the B&M and play some hold em'. Got knocked out of the sat. night tourney (ugliest cards I've ever seen ), so I played in a NL ring game. Here's the hand:
NL Hold em', blinds are 1-2, max buy in is $50. I've been playing with pretty much the same table for the last 3 hours. The best player at the table (besides me, of course) is UTG for this hand. He has about $250 in front of him, as do I. We are the two big stacks at the table.
I get AhKh one off the button. UTG limps, as do 2 others. I raise it $5 (the standard preflop raise has been either 5 or 10 dollars). UTG then check-raises to $22. The others fold and I call.
Flop = 5d 8h 10h
He checks and I bet $30. He smooth calls with not much pause.
Turn = 5d 8h 10h [7s]
He checks again and I bet $30 again. He pauses 3-5 seconds and pushes all in. I ask the dealer for a count (mainly for time...it will be my whole stack if I call). I don't remember what she said, but it was a lot ~$150-$200.
Now, like I said this was a good player. This was the first time I had seen him shove all-in. He had accumulated his stack before I started playing however, so I had trouble putting him on a hand. It was also very late at night and he seemed to be zoning out between hands. I considered this to mean a) he had a good hand and 'woke up' to play it or b) he was capable of attempting serious bluffs in his state. Either way, I really didn't like that bet. I sat there pondering for a long time. I spoke a couple times while thinking ("man, I don't know what to do..."). At one point he said something along the lines of "You can't call unless you have a made hand like a straight or trips." What do you guys think? Was this meant to make me lay it down or get me curious? I actually didn't put much weight on what he was saying at the time.
The check-raise preflop yelled high pocket pair and fit with his play, as did trip 10s or maybe trip 8s. However I didn't find it hard to put him on AK as well or even maybe AQ. What do you think the correct play is?
To Call or Fold.....?
I sat there for 3-4 minutes and then made my decision. I'll tell you the results after some replies.
I think he has AA (KK, QQ and JJ are also possible, but less likely) and the correct play is to fold. Also I don't like your bet on the turn, why didn't you check and get a free card?
Well my objective opinion...
I think you completely misplayed your hand in the first place. Your preflop raise (which was to $5) was way too small for the hand you had. If you had something along the lines of 55 or J10(s) then the $5 raise would have been a better option, but with AK(s) you should have made it $10, as this would have give a much worse price to any callers, especially the blinds. (In your example you say there were 3 limpers to you, so there is already $9 in the pot when it is to you. With AK you want to contest this pot heads up, so you need to give a bad price to your opponents.)
Now you get Check-Raised. Now from any player OTHER than UTG this would seem very unusual, but from an UTG player, it is a pretty standard play with a big hand. Most likely AA or KK, but also QQ, JJ, and even AK(s) You call. (The call was correct, of course.
The flop. You have 2 overcards and nut draw. Not bad, but not what you were hoping for. When he checks, it would set off an alarm to me. He is either going to do one of two things. Check raise the flop, or check raise the turn. So he checks, and you bet $30. (Why $30 btw?) I would have preferred that same $20 he check raised you or a pot size bet. ($54, assuming you took this flop heads up) Then he FLATCALLS. Bingo. He has you fucked. That flatcall is filthy. Ok on to the turn.
This is the worst play in the hand. When he checks to you, you bet again. Why? There is absolutely no reason to bet here. He is going to let you draw for FREE when you should have deduced you were already beat. You should take the free card. Also, if he checks the end (assuming you miss a heart) you check as well, and show your hand down. But if he is going to bet the end, you will not be facing a big bet to call, because he will more likely be looking for a call and be trying to price you in.
I agree with everything Bingo said. You were only betting on the flop to get him to drop there and to get a free river card. You just HAVE to take it there. The smoothe call says "Just keep betting your money off to me", and by betting on the turn, you didn't get to see one of your outs for free.
I would have folded, until he made that comment...I would think that meant he was bluffing with something weak, and a heart, Ace or King would make you a winner...if a Ace or King wouldn't make you a winner, a fold is correct...I might have also checked behind him on the turn, hoping to hit it on the river and have him bluff on me...
Well thanks for the input. I know I should have checked on the turn with the nut draw after he checked again. I remember reading that in Brunson's or Sklansky's book (probably both). I believe he called it a mortal sin in NL (opening yourself up to a raise that you will absolutely hate when you have a draw to the nuts). I meant to put this in my original post.
Anyway, I think I may have overstated the caliber of this player. But that's not too important.
I folded my hand (face up) and he slid his over and said "for your eyes only". I looked and of course flipped it over for all to see (show one show all). He had AJ offsuit. I said "nice hand".
Well of course he has something that none of us will guess, otherewise, why would you post the hand on here. I'd say 99 out of 100 he has a big hand though. Lol
(P.S. You think maybe betting the turn made him believe you were bluffing? I dont think anyone would bet the turn here if they had something inthis spot. I mean, what is he going to put you on? Maybe QQ or JJ would bet, but with KK, AA, or anything else you could have had, i think you should have checked... so maybe it was a very advanced steal on his part, sounds like you just flat out got outplayed in this particular spot)
