TJ Cloutier says to lay down if you're on the nut flush draw and someone was putting you all in (in a tournament, and it'll put you out of the tournament if you lose)...
But in the 2003 WSOP, i saw twice, Phil Darden and Chan call with their flushes...it's what, about 30% chance you'll hit and they both risked their tournament life and called. (they both hit and drug the pot)
What does everyone else think?
If I am above the average chip stack or top 4 in a SnG then I will fold. If I am short stacked I will usually call and hope for the best.
35%...or 1.86:1 against
Like Bull alluded to, it depends on a variety of factors...chip size, stage of the tourney, your goal for that tourney, etc...
TJ's advice is solid.
Speaking of the 03 WSOP, did you see Chan drawing to his flush against Moneymaker and NOT hit, eliminating him from the tourney? Of course, even if he had his King high would have lost to Mm's Ace high.
you were watching the wsop on espn last night LOL.....i dont remember the dymanics of chan's hand so i wont comment....darden on the other hand, was running extremely hot at the time when he called brian haverson's (i think it was) ALL IN...darden has already won several pots off lederer and has gone from small stack to a fairly big stack in a short time....haverson was the small stack so it wasnt like he was risking his tourney on that call.....his call didnt bother me too much...i felt bad for haverson when you have the best of it and you get ousted on a draw....tough beat, but thats poker...
My rule is to NEVER call with all my chips with only a flush draw. If I start considering it, I'll remind myself that I have a 65% chance of being out of the tourney!
I'm not saying I wouldn't MOVE all-in with a flush draw (depending on the circumstances), but calling all-in in that situation is gambling big time.
When Darden was running hott, he wasn't in jeopordy of loosing his whole stack, when he won he knocked haverson out of the tourny.
What I think is more amazing than calling all-in on the nut flush draw is when people push all-in hoping for the nut flush draw. lol!
Your talking about the hand where Phil had 4c5c right? He had him covered easily so Phil was not anywhere near all in by calling.
TyeJae,
If you push all in, you can win by everyone folding. If you get called you still have a chance to draw out. If your the caller the only chance you have is to suck out. Pushing all in on a draw is WAY better than calling all in on a draw.
I think Chan's hand was one of my favorite on the show. He knew he was short stacked and needed to double up, I am sure he was thinking that he had 12 outs not 3. (He had a gutshot too). He had to think for a while to decide if he wanted to buck conventional wisdom and call all in on a draw. When Chan called, Moneymaker actually thought he was behind in the hand until he saw Chan's cards. But my absolute favorite part was Chan's reaction when he saw Money's hand. He said "aww I'm in bad shape; ok, well put a duece out there"
Chan knew that he made a bad call and that it was in all likelyhood probably going to bust him. He didn't whine or attack another player or anything childish like that, he just accepted it and hoped he would catch good. Seemed classy to me anyhow.
I agree 100%. That is one of my most important personal poker rules. When I was still learning the game and developing I would risk my stack, or a lot of it, on that flush/straight draw and didn't hit it that often. I've wisened up, learned about odds/outs, and eliminated a lot of my past mistakes.
...that's what i thought i'd learned too Reelishym, then i saw all those calls with their flush draws on WSOP...and that's the situation that knocked me out of the WPT...i had 2 high pair, went all in, and some guy called with his flush draw with 2 to come.(he wasn't shortstacked) Thought i may have been missing something, but i don't think so.
