Assuming you don't have any particular read on a guy that has only been sitting with you for a few hands, do you fold this hand?
Q8, Q38 on the flop
You bet, get raised, reraise, get capped. Is this where you know you are beat if you are experienced? Do you just know that there is nothing else he could be that sure of than the pure nuts since you have the 4th best possible hand?
After the turn, the board is: Q388
Now you've got the 3rd best possible hand, the other guy is still convinced his hand is worth capping. Again, you oblige him.
The river is a blank, you spend your last chip reraising him and of course, you all knew what was coming... he had the ladies.
SIDENOTE: Another guy called with us all the way to the showdown. He mucked when he saw the boats. It's idiots like that which make me feel like I shouldn't assume the guy with the big full house had me beat.
I have lost with small fullhouses to bigger ones before and I've lost to quads with big fullhouses. Is it playing scared money to just call when you don't have the absolute nuts? Do I just have to get better at evaluating each opponent on a case by case basis and not try to do any one thing all the time?
So again, at what point do you fold this hand?
At what point do you slow down and start checking and calling?
At what point do you realize you don't have the people reading skills required to stay in this game?
I would have folded on the flop. It sounds like everyone limped in so with a raise, reraise and cap I'd be putting someone else on a set of 8's or 3's. I wouldn't even think the guy was slowplaying queens but it happens.
Once you hit your boat on the turn it was very hard to get away from even though you felt you were beat. It takes either a pussy or a really smart player to lay down a boat. Most of us are somewhere in between.
If the flop got checked and then you hit your boat on the turn that's where I would raise/reraise. Too bad that didn't happen.
Tough break. We've all been through it before but this is how we learn. I like to say that even though my mistake cost me "x" dollars, the lesson I learned will gain me double that later on. Same goes for you. Get 'em next time.
For me, the key line is:
SIDENOTE: Another guy called with us all the way to the showdown. He mucked when he saw the boats. It's idiots like that which make me feel like I shouldn't assume the guy with the big full house had me beat.
If you play that Q8 to the river a million times(with that board), do you think you are beat more than half of the time? I would say no, so it is a profitable play. THe only way you could put him on Queens is if it is a live game, and you have a good read on the player. Most players would play pocket 3s the same, or Q3, or AA, or KK, or AQ. So MOST of the time you have a nice pot to take down. Of course if you are playing with good, very tight players, it will change the read, but from what I've seen at 10/20 - 15/30 online, people love to put their chips in with a big hand that isn't the nuts. So I'd say yeah, if you get past the flop (which is the only iffy thing) go ahead and see that to the rvr every time, because of the turn card. YOu should win more than you lose.
THis becomes most profitable when you get a great read on a guy and basically get lucky enough to lay the hand down when you know you're beat, however. THe flop gave you, in my mind, the part you had to worry about, because with all the action, its sort of easy to assume set. THe way the hand turned out, only the queens could beat you, but until that turn came, there were 3 possible sets. If you have any serious doubts, act on them THEN, while it's easy to give up the hand, and subsequently your loss.
Usually when making a read, you can only put a guy on possibilities, like I mentioned above. Even though you'll see a lot of blind stabs at 2 cards, like "I think he had A2s, because he called the bet, but mentioned Gatorade afterwords". In all reality, in todays fishy game its rare that you put a guy on a specific hand like pocket Queens or not. What matters is if you put a guy ahead of you or not, and because many people would act the same way with a much larger number of losing hands (against your full) than winning hands, you can't fault yourself completely for not putting the guy on ONE specific hand
So the flop could've stunk of set, BUT unless you were at a high stakes game, I believe you will make a profit playing the hand the way you did, considering you hit a FH.
However, had you not hit that miracle 8, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and you would just have been beaten by a big hand because you couldn't muck a lousy 2 pair.
With that said I would, and have played that the same way, depending on what I thought of the raiser. I took the same beat the other day, and I was a little grumpy, but overall Full Houses give me nothing but profit.
Actually after the turn you have the 2nd best hand only one better is Q's full. Your going to lose alot of chips in this battle, you could be up agaist almost anything here. A set 2 smaller pr, tp/tk. This hand needs to get bet all the way thru, if he has QQ which he did, it happens but not often and it wasn't likely at all.
Was very suprise you put him on QQ early, that would have been the very last hand I would credit him with.
Get him next time this was just a no win for you and they happen every so often.
Hard to lay down a boat. But I would have just checked/call on turn and river. Why keep capping it if you thought you were beat? Were you or the other guy (that mucked) raising the QQ's?
So to answer when to fold: I would say preflop, unless your in the BB. After that, I would play the flop the same, but if I felt I was beat, I would check/call the turn and river. Assuming its a limit game.
It would help to know the player, bt your gut instincts help alot too. Slow down if you think there is a chance you are beat. That doesnt mean slow down if you have the 2nd 3rd or even 10th best hand everytime, that means slow down when you dont have the nuts AND something seems fishy (like thinking you are beat.)
Q8, suited or not, is not a strong hand. It is best left for one or two limpers when you are SB or BB. This is one of the reasons why you should play it sparingly. I have to question whether or not you make money on it overall. That thought process might be the best starting place.
Yes, you are right. Q8 is not a great starting hand. Every now and then, I'll limp in and look at the flop with it just give me an extra hand every half hour or so. I was in late position and our table was very passive. It was definitely the first thing I could have done better.
Since I saw the flop, I thought I hit it pretty well. I'm not sure it was capped on the flop to be honest. I know it was bet into me but I put the guy on a pair. I raised and it was only after getting reraised that I started thinking about how I don't actually have the nuts yet. Then, the 8 fell. Now I was sure that helped me and not him so I was again ready to raise. When he reraised me, I figured maybe he paired the 8 on the flop and thought his trips would hold up so I reraised him. Yes, people at this table would raise on the flop with nothing but middle pair. People will also sometimes raise on the flop with a draw to try and get a freecard on the turn in case they don't complete. He could have had A8 or JT so I reraised him. At this point, he reraised me again and I started to wise up to the possibility of QQ. At the river, he checked and of course, I bet. Had he read me better, he would have bet straight out. I guess neither of us had a clue but he had the better cards.
If he didn't raise preflop it's hard to put him on QQ.
The question is what do you put him on to justify his raises on the flop? It's hard to put him on an overpair (AA or KK) with no preflop raise. Then the only thing he could have is bottom two. not likely.
From the flop, I'd slow down.
As for playing Q8, late in a passive game, if you play it at all, you should be first in and brintg it in with a raise.
You're totally right. As are the others. I made a bunch of mistakes. The way everything happened, I just felt sucked along the whole way.
Preflop, I was just fishing for a flop. Sort of on tilt from having gotten AKs 4 times and AKo 2 times and losing all 6 hands. sigh.
When the flop came, he bet before me. I thought maybe a straight draw or a pair. I raised. When he reraised I thought maybe trips. I considered slowing down right then.
The the 8 made my FH on the turn. He bet again as would I with trips. So I decided no need to slow down and raised him. He reraised me. Crap. It's here I'm starting to think FH no good.
The rest is history.
Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Hopefully I'll be able to sniff this sort of thing out better in the future.
Rate Member posted 05-06-2004 08:49 PM
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I think you should have check/called, seeing that you capped it all the way thinking that the guy might of had a better hand. Going to the river is fine but raising and reraising at every oppertunity is a bad way to go.
I personally would have put him on 33, or a chop with Q8.
