6/12 limit game. I flop an open ended that hits on the turn. On the river I bet from early position and thought both guys still in had folded, so I pushed my cards still face down to the side to get my pot. Turns out one guy didn't fold, so when I realize this I go to flip my cards and show my straight and the other guy starts screaming I mucked my cards and shows his 2 pair. Startled, I ask the dealer if I can turn my cards she says no they were mucked. Why the F would I muck a str8 that I bet on? Furthermore, the cards were still within my easy arm reach to the side, and had not been touched by the dealer.
Let's back up 1 hour, when another guy threw his cards all the way to the dealer "box" on top of other cards and was allowed to take them back I suspect because he was a "regular" and an older guy.
So I call the supervisor over and he rules I had mucked my cards by placing them to the side. 1/2 the table is in an uproar because the dealer screwed the pooch so bad and was now covering her azz, my hand was definitely not "mucked", and they all saw the hand 1 hour prior where a guy was allowed to take his cards out of the muck pile, not to mention the floor supervisor told me their "rules" are supposed to be flexible for fairness and this was not fair by any stretch.
I stayed around long enough to make the screamer pay me off AA v KK and left.
Excellent post Racer...If you know how, please move a copy over to the thread about "unwritten rules of hold'em."
We are here to welcome the newcomer, not ridicule him, and this kind of post really highlights that. If any of you are new to the game, or new to live play after extensive online experience, this post is a must read. It might never happen in your playing experience, but once is enough, as no one wants to give up an edge.
I learned the hard way, too. And it was followed by a patronizing call from the floor, and yes, the other player was a fixture in the room and I was a visitor.
After the hand was over, the guy to my right whispered to me to watch him next time he had a showdown at the river, which turned out to be a while as he was tight as the bark on a tree!!!
But he went to a showdown (multiway), and placed his cards face up directly in front of his chips but "in the circle", but HIS HAND NEVER LEFT HIS CARDS until he saw a hand that he was sure had beaten him.
He had top pair, beaten by three of a kind on the river. When he saw the trips, he turned his cards over and tossed them in front of the dealer. He did not wait to see any other hand, as he only wanted to make sure he was beaten before mucking his hand by passing it to the dealer.
This is an unwritten law for me now, as I have seen three or four occasions where dealer and players misread the hands, usually to be corrected and causing a big ruckus if a hand had been mucked.
Use Racer's experience and don't have to learn this one the hard way!!!
From the Tropicana Poker Rule Book "It shall be the responsiblitly of all players to protect their hand until they are satisfied that it has lost to all hands at the table"..."A player who fails to take reasonable means to protect their hand shall have no redress if their hand becomes foulded or the dealer accidently collects the hand"..."Any player, dealer or floorperson who sees an error about to be made in awarding a pot has an ethical obligation to speak up"..."A discarded hand which has never been properly identified that is turned face up by the dealer at another player's request cannot win any part of the pot. The dealer should touch the hand to the muck before turning it up, but this gesture is done only to avoid an argument, and is not considered necessary from a legal standpoint in order to have the hand be dead"...."If a floorperson feels that a player deliberately miscalled his hand in an attempt to make other players throw their hands away, an attempt will be made to retrieve any hands that were discarded"...Definitioins: FOULED HAND - A hand that either has an improper number of cards or has come into contact with other cards in such a way as to render it impossible to determine accurately which cards are contained in the hand".....MUCK - The discarded pile of cards. As a verb it means to put a hand into the discard pile thereby killing it; PROTECTED HAND - Cards whick the player is physically holding or has secured by placing a chip (s) on them.
But racer was on both sides of this fence...by the rules posted at Trop, his hand was not mucked. But it was not protected either.
I think he got a bum call myself.
But back to the protected hand thingy, if he had protected his hand by holding on to it, there would have been no doubt.
Damn Racer, that was F'ing BS. If that happened to me, I probably would have embarassed myself by the scene I caused afterwards. I feel you were definitely in the right on this one. Your cards never touched the muck, you never said fold, and the dealer didn't collect your hand. The floor really dropped the ball on that one.
Jimmy - you bring up an excellent point. I usually fold when I know I'm beat on the river. For instance, I was playing in a room the other night and held AK(o). Heads up by the river and I had caught my K on the flop. Board pairs 7s on the river. I bet out, get called, and the other guy says '2 pair'. A Jack came on the flop as well so I was thinking he had Ks and Js. I said, 'It's good' and tossed my hand in face up. He turned his over and he had Ks, the 7s on the board, and a weaker kicker. Luckily, the dealer awarded the pot to me but it could have gone the other since 'it's good' could be perceived as folding. I learned a valuable lesson. I was in a mindset where I totally disregarded the pair on the board when thinking about what I had or calling out my hand. A stupid mistake which almost cost me a pot.
Yes, pokerchris, the rules from the Tropicana are similar to the rules at the Ameristar, and jimmyjohn is also right that by the rules, spirit and letter, my hand had not yet been mucked. Bottom line, I was screwed.
I am a regular at the Ameristar Casino and I've done this a couple of times and was always able to flip my cards up as long as they didn't touch the muck or the dealer didn't touch them.
Just out of curiousity, who was the floor supervisor or what did he look like? There is one guy there that not many care for because he often screws up like this.
Sorry to hear about your loss. Next time this happens, request that they go to the eye in the sky and let them sort it out.
Also, there are a number of new dealers that just started this month. A few of them are really struggling right now. You will often see the regulars giving these guys a hand on what to do becuase they are just too green to know what to do all the time.
If I were you racer I would keep returning and only play with that particulal dealer. Every pot you win, take the lot and don't give the dealer a penny.
Really large guy, not so tall, but really large if you know who I'm talking about, he is there all the time. The dealer was Sharon who I normally (had) like(d).
David, the other floor super, was cool about it and agreed to reinvestigate, but it was an hour later before I decided for sure I had been F'd versus just being mad, so by then the story from the dealer and floor super who came over first I'm sure was that I threw my cards away into the stack and they were being re-dealt....
Define "Protecte your Cards" Do you have to sit there with a pitch fork and growl at anybody that comes within a couple of feet of your cards?
If you were playing at night, he would have had back hair and a bit of facial hair (I think his name is Tony). He's usually allright. Sharon is a good dealer so I'm suprised that she did that. In fact, I've been there a few times where the big blind tried mucking their hand forgetting that they were the big blind and she ended up letting them play it. David too is a good guy. You could have probably gotten a good comp, like a free buffet, if you would have asked and been polite about the mistake. Just remember for future reference.
In live play, at the end of the hand that goes to showdown and a winner/winners has to be determined, some people will throw their cards in the middle before a final ruling has been made by the dealer. Until you are absolutely sure you have won/lost/split the pot, you should have your two cards in front of you where the dealer can see them, but still keep one hand on them. The reason for this is in case someone else who has lost should throw their hand toward the dealer or muck pile, your cards will not be mixed up with other cards. If that happens, it becomes "word of honor" as to which two are yours. I will not quote anything about "no honor among thieves" at this point....lol.
Also, if the dealer misreads and is declaring someone else the winner, when in fact you have won or should split the pot, you have not relinquished your hand in any way. Some showdowns end up with 4 or 5 hands in contention, and the dealer has quite a job sorting things out. Usually the dealer is being "helped" by several of the players, which makes it really confusing. The dealer will sometimes find the winner did not know he or she had won, and is remaining silent, thinking they have been beat.
But in retrospect, in some really tough games, the pitchfork and growling might not be a bad idea!!!
